Odd Horse Behaviour - Vice?

Q -
The field where I keep my horse and pony is split into 2, a new horse has come for a short term visit so he went into the field with loads of grass so I put my TB in with him. The horse is an ex race horse, about 3 years old and has just come off the racing yard as he didn't suit racing.

All was fine for the first few days, I did notice that the new horse is the boss which mine doesn't like but now I have noticed all the grass along one side of the gate about 8 square feet is bare earth, the new TB stands licking the ground for a lot of the time when he isn't pacing the fence. My TB who had no odd habits is now copying, is this a vice, is something deficient in the diet, mine is just on grass no feed, the new one has a feed but not sure what is in it.

Anyone encountered this before?


A -
You said you have two different places so:

The first thing you should do and do it right now is to SEPARATE your horse from the new horse because your horse will pick up all the bad habits that all race horses carry Unfortunately.

Yes Ex - Racehorses have stress problems and the owners must rebuild their bad habits and remove their stress from their brains these are all the Human fault which all race horses get during that time.

A lot of wonderful people "rescue" ex-racehorses and want to rehabilitate them but some don't understand the challenges facing them. Sometimes they get lucky and reach their goal with a little difficulty, the challenges are hard and takes a lot of time and patient. Sometimes you take one step forward and two steps backwards.
I always suggest to take the ex-racehorse back to the first basics of Horse Training.

I can say all ex-racehorse have no "Trust" and for rehabilitating a ex-racehorse all is about how much "Trust" we can develop between us and the Horse for doing that all happens on the ground in the basics of Gentle and appropriate Communication.

What are the needs of a ex-racehorse:
Changing old patterns , Developing a Huge amount of "TRUST" and "RESPECT" and Deep Profound "BOND".

Wish you the best and don't forget to remove your Horse before is too late.

PH

What would make you suspect an eye problem?

Q -
Hi. I suspect the four year old I am looking after may have problems with his eyesight on one side. Could anyone tell me what symptoms or behaviors they would expect in horses with eyesight problems and what i should be looking for if this is the case.

Particularly when carrying out groundwork would there be anything glaring that might be noticed? All experience and advice appreciated.


A -
The EAR - Watch the EAR ABOVE the PROBLEM EYE.


If you concentrate on the Ears you will see there is no harmony between the two ears and you will see the eye which you think has a problem the ear above it will always in motion and turning so the Horse could collect information from the side which has sight problem.

For Example:
If a Horse eye (Left) has problem the Left Ear will always be in motion and it dose not rest like the Right Ear and also the left ear will lose it's harmony with the right ear.

I hope there is nothing wrong with your horse and I wish you and your horse the best and good health too.

PH

Learning To Pick Up 4 Feet

"Four Feet Means The Horse Only Defense TOOL"

The reason we say young foals must be Imprint Trained is this and the 4 legs must be Desensitized right after birth unfortunately many don't do and come to a point that might hurt themselves or the poor Horse and many think this is the work of Farrier which is not.

would we give up our only defense tool to someone which we have no relation no Bond , Trust and Confidence?

Stay out of the kick area and be aware of it.

The only Defense Horses have in time of danger is their legs therefor you are asking a Horse to give up their only defense tool, so you have to be patient.

Grooming is very much important because the Horse logical Communication starts with Grooming but start in a sensitive way make each session short take some steps back pause then go to the horse praise then restart your grooming this is very important to make your sessions short and take some steps away from the horse.
Start with grooming Establish Trust make good Bond and Gain their Confidence.

Desensitize each leg without picking them up just rub them until they are fully Desensitized to the touch of your hand.

After Desensitizing just very lightly clap each leg by your hand normally after some clapping they pick that hand up when they do Hold the hand for few seconds and let go don't hold the hand or leg too much.
Is best to leave the Horse after each session and take some steps back so they know you are no harm to them.
If the Horse is holding his/her head up that means you wont be able to pick any hand the horses head must come down (normal position) this means the horse is calm while you are with him/her ? if not start with grooming again and be more patient and give more quality time spend more time with the horse , lead properly too.

If you are not so sure that you can desensitize the 4 legs by your hands then you can make an artificial hand to especially doing this and Desensitizing the 4 legs.

PH

LONG LINE REINING

LUNGING or LONG LINE REINING the HORSE WHICH IS BEST FOR THE HORSE NOT THE HUMAN?

1- let your horse to smell the lines as long as needed (the time to be used to long line is different on horses).
2-the horse should not be afraid of the long lines for a good start.
3-when the long line goes around the legs for the first time the horse starts to kick with both legs this is normal and you should let the horse to kick as much as he likes so after some time he will not kick at all and the line around the legs is normal for him.
always finish on a good ground do not rush at all.
DO NOT FORGET THE STEP BACKWARD AFTER GOING IN STRAIGHT LINE ON WALK (A STEP BACK AND RELEASE OF PRESSURE (THE RELEASE OF PRESSURE IS THE BEST REWARD AND AUTOMATICALLY WHEN THE HORSE PUTS ONE STEP TO THE BACK THE PRESSURE IS RELEASED.
Make turns with the long line .
make circle with the long line and change the direction(before any change in direction dont forget the step backwards this is Important.
wish you all the best.

Single line longeing puts the horse OFF BALANCE with his SPINE in a COUNTER ARC.
A LOSE HORSE moving naturally is BALANCED and moves in a natural arc.
The LONG LINES ARE BALANCED AND THE HORSE IS MOVING AS HE WOULD NATURALLY.
Monty Roberts Points:
1- Do not single line lounge your horse.
2- Single line longeing:
Throws the horse off balance.
Causes the horse to cross canter.
Damages ligaments,tendons and muscle.

Lunging horses is totally wrong , Lunging puts the horse off balance (HORSE LOSSES THE BALANCE FROM TAIL TO THE SPINE AND FINALLY THE NECK AND ALL THE WAY TO THE MUZZLE IN ONE WORD HORSE LOSSES THE BALANCE FROM TAIL TO MUZZLE.
The best and most schooling or training from the GROUND is LONG LINING AND YOU SHOULD ALWAYS TRAIN (%80) OF YOUR WORK ON A HORSE BY WALK ONLY.
WALK BUILDS THE HORSE FOR ALL THE THINGS YOU ASK FOR.
Long lining is very simple if you do it on walk only (the benefit of WALK is you can control the horse easily specially for some one without the experience of long lining.
The benefit of long lining it makes the horse to move and walk in a COLLECTION this is very crucial that horse moves in collection.
When you long line a horse for the first time he or her resists and starts to buck because of the BUT ROPE (THE ROPE WHICH IS THE OUTER ONE AND COMES AROUND THE HIND ABOVE THE HOCK) BUT SOON THE BUCKING WILL STOP THE AMOUNT OF BUCKING IS DIFFERENT IN HORSES.
BUCKING has a good reason for the horse (The horse has to change the way which he or she has moved from birth until now, with long lining for the first time you are changing the movement of the total body of the horse you are asking for a change even in the behavior of the horse and this needs a great deal of change).
Long lining a horse for the first time must be stop when the bucking has stopped in other words you have done a great deal of work and you have finished on a positive ground (finishing on a positive ground is important ).
For example if you long line your horse for the first time and he starts to buck and lets say he buck for 5 minutes and he stops bucking and starts to walk this is the best starting session for the day and start the 2nd session the next day.
The length of time is not important the quality of good work and finishing on positive ground is important.
For example with long lining you can train the horse on WALK ONLY but with one line lunging you can not control the horse and mostly start with TROTTING ,CANTERING OR GALLOP which is negative.
With long lining you can do the step to the back but with one line lunging you can not make the horse to step back (the step back is very crucial in training horses).
I hope I have not missed anything but if there is anything which is up to my knowledge I will be glad to answer.
One other thing which is very much important with long lining and horse walking in a collection, horse brings the HINDS UNDER (THIS MEANS HORSE PUTS THE PRESSURE ON THE MAIN SOURCE OF THE POWER WHICH ARE THE LEGS AND USES THE HANDS FOR CHANGING THE DIRECTION AND YOU WILL NOTICE THIS WHEN YOUR HORSE IS GOING DOWN HILL).
Horses which are not using the HINDS as the main source of the power when they go down hill you feel with each step the fork of your saddle will punch you right between your legs but horses which use the hinds as the main power you feel nothing and all the movement is very smooth.

One of the important benefits of long lining is :
Long Lining brings the Horse on the Hinds and Horse will learn the main power or the source of the power are the Hinds the Hands are for changing the direction.Most of the Horses that have Hand problem it is because of this that they are not walking on Hinds and they put more pressure on the Hands especially on jumping.
The but rope and the pressure on the nose (Horse Head) makes the Horse to bring the Hinds under .The other benefit of the Long Lining is it makes the Horse to walk in COLLECTION.
Horse walking in COLLECTION this is crucial too.

All horses when they are single line lunged the keep their head slightly out from the circle this is general with all horses in single lunging.

All horses when they are long lining (2 line) the keep their head slightly inward the circle this is general with all horses in long lining (2 line each going inside the stirrup).
When a horse is free of any rope circling in a round pen you will see his head is slightly inside of the circle so his neck and his poll , it is the same when a rider is circling a horse his head , neck and his poll are towards the inside of the circle now we come to the main point that when a horse is circling the inside hand will go first for Example if we are circling to the left the left hand of the horse will go first then his outer hand (the right hand) and when we are circling to the right the right hand will pick up first and go first therefore in any direction the hand which is inside the circle will be picked and go first. this is good for the balance of the horse and in riding the rider has the corporative of the horses body horse can react fully to the riders action and ability to control.
Imagine if all I said will be in opposite the neck the poll the head and the hand and the horses axis what will happen nothing is in the control of the horse and if the rider is on then it will be a disaster just Imagine for one second.

What I mean by lunging is single line attached to the horse head either on the top of his/her nose or under his/her chin no matter the main point is the single line lunging which the lunger has no control what so ever over the horse especially if the horse is green or the horse has not come out for some time and has more energy than the horse which comes out every day this kind of horse will use most of his/her energy in the first moment when he/she strikes out I think anyone can imagine what I am saying.


Let me ask you some simple questions if you do not mind:
1- How do you stop a horse on single line?
2- How do you take a step back (rein back a horse) on a single line?
3- How do you do the figure 8 on a single line?
4- How do you correct the inside Hand of the horse on a single line?
5- How do you change direction on a single line?
6- How do you make the horse to stand still for a moment to relax on a single line?
7- How do you make a horse to walk on a collection with a single line?
8- How do you make a horse to bring his/her hinds under?
9- How do you make a horse to go on walk only or trot only or canter only on a single line?
10- How do you train a young Horse without any physical damage to the hands and hinds on a single line?

These are the very crucial thing that a trainer must do especially with a young horse.

Please can you answer these question for me I will be honored.


For example :

x = Human

( = Horse , this is a positive and correct body positioning and no damage to the horses spine.

) = Horse Which has wrong body position because of single line lunging the reason for that is single line lunging puts the horse off balance and this will damage the spine for the rest of the creatures life.


When we single line lunge (especially the single rope is attached on the top of the nose the position of the horse to the x which is the lunger is :

X -------------------------------------------------------------- (
Lunger Horse

This diagram I hope explain what I am talking about I hope.
The horse on a single line lunge will look like this < ( > towards the lunger.
The horse body his inside ear closer to the lunger his Muzzle out his Spine is in a arc position like the < ( > his hands unbalanced his Hinds unbalanced .
Because of all in the above the single line lunging puts the horse off balance.


The Horse with 2 long line reining is:

X----------------------------------------------------------)
The two long line reining The Horse

In 2 long line reining the horse moves naturally and balanced and his/her spine in a arc like this ).
Even the loose horse in a round pen when going in a circle is like the above and moves naturally and balanced and his/her spine in a arc like this ).


The single line lunger has no control on a single line lunge what so ever.
There for if we have no control over something and horse has all the controls why we do it then what is the purpose of doing something like that.

Long line (2 lines) reining it is more likely like a remote riding with no rider on the horse and the main thing is the hind rope (the but rope) this is more effective this is where you put the horse on walking on collection until you don't teach a horse to go on collection the horse will not learn and many of the hand injuries are from the horse not on collection.
You experience this when your horse is going Down Hill , how do you feel up there when your horse is going down hill?
You can stop a horse with 2 line when ever you want.
You can make the horse to step back when ever you want.
You can go from walk to trot and more when ever you want and many other things.

One of the most important reasons of all is the single line lunging puts the horse off balance as I said in the previous post this is the most important reasons of all that I am against single line lunging.
The other reasons come after the main one .
If it is so and you do everything with your voice and the horse is in your command and does everything by your voice why you put the single rope on the horse head in the first place in other words just put your horse on lunge with no rope on.

One line lunging:
We can not ignore the weight of the line which the horse is carrying on one side of his/her body therefor the weight of the line unbalances the horse it pulls the horse head inside and at the same time horse wants to travel equal on both sides thats why the horse inside ear is closer to you than his/her nose.
If the lunger pull the line more weight will be on the single line and it will put the horse more in to a unbalanced position , because of this the horse neck and poll is not relaxed in this way.
All what I said in this post and previous ones it will put the horse muscles and skeleton in a bad position and it will damage them all in this way horse will put more pressure on the outside hind and the inside hand this will damage some important ligaments,tendons and muscles especially in young horses it will end in physiological damages.
When you loss such a horse which has traveled in this manner (single line lunging) he/she will travel in the same manner by its own and it will end in back problems.
I am not against Lunging I am against single line lunging.
Some people when they are in a round pen they still use a single line attached to the horse head it is better to loss the horse and try to lunge without the single line.
You always talk about I do this and that with my horse I am saying when you put a horse for the first time on a single lunge the horse will not obey you at all.
Horses that obey you by your words they are the ones that you have used words with stimuli after some time the word has the reaction of the stimuli but from the beginning if you just say WHOA the horse will not understand that he has to stop but if you use it for some time the word and the stimuli then the word will have the meaning of that particular stimuli (Pavlov the Russian professor).

I have seen people when they are frightened or the horse is showing too much energy because they are not either capable or they are afraid they single line lunge the horse so the poor horse will get tired and losses his energy then they ride him this happens especially on stallions and because the horse is starting with a lot of energy at the beginning the horse will harm himself.

The first few minutes are very crucial because the horse has lots of energy and he will put it all in action in the starting point of single line lunging this is the moment when all the harm is done.

This post is not finished it needs more work to do so please if you see any mistakes or things written so many times please forgive me.

PH

HORSE SECRET INSTINCTS

Dear all :

I need your help for adding to these.

1- Horse is a flight animal not a fight animal.
2- Hoses need to see everything from the both sides (from each eye).
3- Horses have emotions.
4- Praise is the real reward for horses.
5- For learning something there must be peace in horses mind.
6- Horses do not see food the way that predators do.
7- Horses communicate with their body language.
8- For teaching something to a horse just show them a few times they will learn quick.
9- The horse eye works like a binocular.
10- Horses are very delicate to touch.
11- Horse is a mimic animal but mostly from their own.
12- Horses see colour White , Red (mostly like brown) , Green , Yellow
13- Horses have excellent night vision and can learn at night time just like day time.
14- Horses have good sense of coming home (finding home at night and day).
15- Horses can feel (from the hoof to the brain) the holes in the ground when they are running they do this by the middle ear the same way that they could tell the earth quake.
16- Horses have great memories.
17- Horses have habits.
18- Horses are excellent in reading minds.
19- Horses are into pressure creatures.
20- Horses are very good for responding to Imprint Training at birth.

With regards.

PH

VIOLENCE & INTELLIGENCE

Hi to all:

We are responsible for our Horses and their Actions.

What do we call Violence?
What do we call Intelligence? (I don't mean the definition of the word)

1-Hobbling.
2-Whipping.
3-Castrating.
4-Boxing and Stabling.
5-Shoeing.
6-Horse Harnesses.
7-Our Body actions and our Body Language.
8-Even Riding.
9-The actions we take as Punishment.
10- .... You add to my list Please or take off from my list I didn't try to put all the things which I think are violence so please complete the list in either way thank you. .

And more if you please add , tell me where do we draw the line and say this is Violence towards this creature?

How and when do we use our intelligence to prevent something cruel , aggressiveness , punishment and violence?

What are the Positive and Negative results of these on the Horse.
Is the result of a violence action appears right away or dose it appear in the future or in a longer period of time?

Dose the effect of violence has many outcomes or just a simple one?

An act of violence destroys trust. Without trust, you cannot work as one with your horse.
I know One thing any kind and amount of violence destroys Trust.
Trust , establishing trust as we all say.
Trust wont match the punishment and violence and any other action which is the feeling of the Horse.
Trust with our partner (Horse).
There are other things but to my knowledge this is the most important one.

To be honest and frank I have to become a Horse to answer my post .
The definition must be given by a Horse not by our dictionary , don't you think so?

But I try my best to become a Horse as much as I can to answer to your posts next time I get on line , as I said in other thread you have to be in the mood for doing something especially things that has something to do with your mind and brain working , Don't you think so?
We have to know the feelings of the Horse to each single thing.

PH

Teaching My Horse Going Downhill

Q - Hi persianhorse, about that question i asked on the other very long thread and then sort of forgot about it....so sorry.

i asked for tips on getting my mare better balanced going downhill.

and you said

Susan in Greece : I will do my best and up to my knowledge .
1- Do you have a round PEN? If not a place with 5 inch of cushion for schooling and about 20 meters in diameter?
2- Do you have a pair of long lines?
3- Do you have 2nd rider to help you sometimes?
4- How old is your MARE?

1. i'm afraid no round pen or schooling area at all
2. sorry no,
3. yes (phew)
4. she's 6

i'm curious about what you are going to suggest

best wishes

susan.


A - If you want to know it deep by measurement and see how fast is your horse is improving Please read the POSTS I POSTED IN THE THREAD (WHY MY HORSE IS WALKING SIDEWAYS?) I
EXPLAIN SOME MEASUREMENTS ABOUT THE PLACE OF THE HIND WHERE IS THE BEST PLACE FOR THE HIND TO LAND , AND THE SADDLE PUNCHES YOU IN WHERE YOUR LEGS ARE JOINED UNDER YOUR BELLY.MAKE THESE MEASUREMENTS BEFORE YOU START.
YOU NEED 2 LONG LINES WHICH WONT CUT THE HIND LEGS OF THE HORSE (ONE OF THE ROPES IS CALLED THE BUTT ROPE THE ONE WHICH IS ALWAYS ON AND AROUND THE HIND LEGS.You have to get the 2 long ropes they are the main tool for bringing the horse on his hinds.
I have to go I explain more latter but definitely find the long lines it is crucial for this schooling and many other thing in future you will need them.

Do not make things hard for yourself.
1- Just saddle the horse.
2- Close the stirrups together under the horses belly so they stand still.
3- Put one end of the rope to the (D ring) if you have a western hackamore better.
4- The ropes will go inside the stirrups .
5- Stand at one point and the other two ends of the ropes are in your hands.
6- One of the ropes the out side one (THE BUTT ROPE) WILL TOUCHES SLIGHTLY ON THE HORSES HIND ABOVE THE HOCKS WHERE IT IS CURVED INSIDE.
7- JUST DO NOTHING FOR SOME TIME AND SEE WHAT IS THE REACTION OF THE HORSE.
8- HORSES WHICH HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED THE BUTT ROPE AND IT IS THE FIRST TIME THAT THE ROPE IS TOUCHING THEIR HINDS THEY WILL BUCK FOR SOME TIME THIS IS GOOD DO NOT WORRY.
9- AFTER SOME BUCKING THE HORSE WILL COME TO A STAND STILL POSITION AND THIS IS GOO FOR THE 1st DAY OF SCHOOLING THE 1st DAY IS JUST TO SHOW THE HORS THE ROPES AND FEELING THE BUTT ROPE (FEELING THE BUT ROPE IS VERY MUCH CRUCIAL) THE STATE OF WALKING OF YOUR HORSE WILL CHANGE FOR GOOD TO WARDS BETTER TOWARD BRINGING THE HINDS UNDER TO WARDS THE HORSE TO WALK ON LEGS AND NO PRESSURE ON HANDS ANY MORE.
10- THE SECOND SESSION JUST WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU LOUNGE A HORSE BUT THIS TIME WITH 2 ROPES AND A ROPE ON THE BUTT (WALK ONLY AND A STEP TO THE BACK AND CHANGE THE DIRECTION OF THE CIRCLE.
11- DOING THE No:10 FOR SOME DAYS PUT A RIDER ON AND BRING THE BUTT ROPE AROUND AND STAND TO THE SIDE OF THE HORSE HEAD (THE ROPE NOW IS STARTING ON THE OTHER SIDE INSIDE THE STIRRUP OF THE OTHER SIDE AROUND THE HINDS (BUTT) AND INTO YOUR HAND NOW YOU PUT THE PRESSURE ON THE BUTT ROPE AND THE RIDER HOLD THE HORSE SO IT WONT GO FORWARD THEN THE RIDER SLIGHTLY RELEASES THE PRESSURE AND YOU PUT ON THE PRESSURE ON THE BUTT ROPE SO THE HORSE GOES ONE STEP FORWARD AND YOU DO THIS AROUND A CIRCLE AND CHANGE SIDES (ONE THE LEFT SIDE IS INSIDE THE OTHER THE RIGHT IS INSIDE).
WITHE DOING THIS YOUR HORSE WILL BE ON HINDS LIKE A BLINK OF AN EYE.
IF YOU HAVE ANY ? I WILL BE GLAD TO ANSWER.

IF YOU DO THIS PROPERLY THE CONFORMATION OF YOUR HORSE WILL BE CHANGED IF NOT I WILL LEAVE THIS (IHDG) FOR GOOD.
THE STATE OF YOUR HORSE IN DOWN HILL , UP HILL ON WALK AND EVERYTHING ELSE WILL CHANGE AND DO NOT SAY I CAN NOT DO IT.
PLEASE DO NOT MIX THE LONG LINING WITH LUNGING (LUNGING HORSES IS BAD BECAUSE IT PUTS THE HORSE OFF BALANCE AND LONG LINING PUTS THE HORSE ON COLLECTION , LEGS UNDER AND BALANCE).

Everything works well when the Horse has learned Collection this is so Important for the Horse and the rider.Please don't believe those whom would say only those should learn COLLECTION that they do Dressage I call these people the Enemy of the Horse & Rider.

PH